Change the wiggle default NOW or else.....

Case number:845813-997521
Topic:Game: Tools
Opened by:alcor29
Status:Open
Type:Question
Opened on:Friday, April 18, 2014 - 17:37
Last modified:Saturday, June 27, 2015 - 15:08

Can you please give me an explanation as to why you have the default as it is now? I know you are studying the data for the effect of all these and understand that you do not want to be rushed into making a decision. It seems to me then that it would be best if you analyzed the data by allowing only one type of wiggle on each puzzle. Why am I suggesting this? Am I deranged? Possibly, but having the 3 or four wiggles there with a default of auto or medium as previously done is an attempt to coax us into using the wiggle you want to check. I get it. However, you are not taking into account the awful consequences of your choice.

To give you an example: This morning I ran a script for 1.75 hours only to discover that I was on the darned default. OK, so I calmed down, created a new track and tried again. Went out and did things for a couple of hours and came back to find that I have wasted another 2 hours on the wrong default (luckily I now practice constant saving due to the problem this creates). Apparently I inadvertenty switched defaults when I did a look see on a save I had made not relaizing that the track change was going to foil me once again. Now that means 4 hours of wasted computer time, wear and tear on the processor and fans, wasted electricity (= money, carbon footprint, not to mention precious bandwidth. And most importantly this is not the first time this has happened. Far from it. I would estimate between 70 100 times is a closer estimate. So you will say well that's your fault. Why don't you remember to check the default? Admittedly, I am old and brain damaged but perhaps in some mysterious way I may represent a small but significant sample of your players. There may be other default challenged folders here.

The low wiggle is currently the one that least harm, at least till you have come to definitive conclusion and picked your favored wiggle. Maybe I'm wrong; maybe those who like to work in medium, auto or high will disagree, but it seems to me that if you have to have a default, low is the only choice. I and I suspect others have been extraordinarily patient, so can you give me or us a reasonable explanation as to why this practice continues?

Exasperatedly yours,
alcor

(Fri, 04/18/2014 - 17:37  |  23 comments)


Joined: 04/20/2012
Groups: Go Science

I would also prefer low power wiggle to be the default.

gitwut's picture
User offline. Last seen 23 weeks 6 days ago. Offline
Joined: 05/18/2012
Groups: Contenders

Did you see the blogs on Wiggle power? If not, page back once or twice and you should find them. From what I can tell, auto is the default but auto is essentially low power unless there are unidealities present that can't be worked out in low power. It supposedly shifts to medium power while the unidealities exist. I don't know that I've ever noticed the shift, but it does appear as though auto is by default low wiggle power. You only need change if you need medium or high.

As it currently stands, you will lose time if you intended to use medium or high but forgot to change it. However, if medium or high were default (for whatever reason), you could effect changes that can only be undone by prior saves. That is, simply changing backwards to low power, if you accidentally ran medium or high power for a decent amount of time, will yield far fewer points. There are exceptions to this depending on the scripts you run, but it is true for most of the older scripts.

If auto truly works as described, then it is the option that is least likely to cause damage but generally will do the most good at beginning stages of a puzzle.

alcor29's picture
User is online Online
Joined: 11/16/2012

Thanks gitwut. I understood that auto was low plus medium when necessary, but the few admittedly tentative attempts at using auto didn't seem to me to produce results to my liking, and perhaps I was overly prejudiced toward having it fix things I preferred to fix later because I thought no fixing gave me more latitude in the early stages. Since I can only run one client now it is too hard for me to run a good parallel test to see the actual difference. I will however take your observations to heart and use auto for the next couple of puzzles to see it really matters. If it doesn't, I will no longer need to be frustrated every time this happens.

gitwut's picture
User offline. Last seen 23 weeks 6 days ago. Offline
Joined: 05/18/2012
Groups: Contenders

I prefer not to use auto, but always start a new puzzle on low. It probably doesn't make much difference in the early stages but like you, I want to make the choice myself and not rely on auto. I didn't agree with having auto as default when NC began, but have noticed that it is probably the safest option for default if you want to do the "least" harm.

I sometimes forget about it defaulting to auto when I've been running medium or high but as I said above, at least it only wastes time as opposed to wasting time and forcing backtracks to a previous save (if you're lucky enough to have made any).

I understand your frustration, but in order to keep the flexibility of having 3 different power levels, I prefer they leave things as they are or at least keep the current default and add configuration options so that you can set your own default if you wish to.

Joined: 09/21/2011
Groups: Void Crushers

I never, never want to use auto. It freezes the protein too much, just like medium or high.
I always run on low except when I want to see how far medium or high will get me.
And sometimes I use medium or high on just a few segments with a really bad score. But those I pick myself.
I too have wasted a lot of time when I forgot to put the default back to low.

Joined: 04/15/2012
Groups: Beta Folders

My thoughts:

Auto is fine. I don't want low, because based on what the devs said, there can be some major issues created from un-idealities. In fact, I don't think I would ever use low because I would have to constantly switch to medium or high when doing a "risky activity". However, I don't want medium or high as default, as that's slower and can get the protein more stuck (to my knowledge), and I usually leave them ONLY for late-game. And as for beginners, no matter what the default, this NEEDS to be included in the tutorials, so that they don't wind up with either un-idealities or have no chance at getting a high score.

How about we let everyone choose their own default if they wish? That way we can just cut the complaints and everyone's happy. :P

gitwut's picture
User offline. Last seen 23 weeks 6 days ago. Offline
Joined: 05/18/2012
Groups: Contenders

I agree for the most part, but my understanding is that there can be unidealities that need to be worked out under low power. Just because wiggle has little or no ideality enhancement at low power doesn't mean you can't use the tools or script that can. So IMO it is better to start on low power and work upwards since the higher powers tend to cement your puzzle more quickly.

I also noticed on 877 that while trying to grind out as many points as I could with low power (my usual MO), I couldn't seem to get above rank 40ish. I think it was due to an unideality that could only be worked out at high wiggle power, because I jumped 30 ranks within minutes of doing so. Normally, I could stick to low and still rank roughly in the 20s but not in that instance.

Just sharing ideas though. There is no single strategy that works for everyone in every circumstance. :-)

Joined: 04/15/2012
Groups: Beta Folders

Personally, it sounded that getting rid of the ideality issues as auto does is critical. And as the new players don't know about this, they'll be left with lower scores, but at least not as low and they won't have the really important issues.

alcor29's picture
User is online Online
Joined: 11/16/2012

I appreciate all the responses. The problem I was addressing is really only trying to avoid the 'golldarnit' moment (haha) when you really that you were on the 'wrong' default (one different from the one you intended), and you have to backtrack to your before-going-to higher power save. That's actually what I meant by harm. It seems to me that from the point of view of the Baker lab to prevent the most damage to the protein there should only be one wiggle and that is high power wiggle. The reason being that only it, I presume, matches the advances made in Rosetta recently. And, actually, that would solve my issue because there would be no choice. High power was apparently abandoned because of the high incidence of crashes that it seemed to cause, and may also have been implicated in the heating problem. Why they kept low and medium? It beats me. To provide more leeway in folding and/or design? To make it a little bit of more fun? I don't really know. I haven't seen that much variation anyway in the higher rank finishes during the time I have been folding. Dawn's idea would be nice. Then I would only have myself to blame for screwing up. Maybe there are other ways to mitigate the 'wrong' power issue. Other than placing the burden on my patience, I don't know. I will try to be tolerant of auto and see what happens.

Joined: 04/15/2012
Groups: Beta Folders

The reason why high isn't default:

It's EXTREMELY slow.
It get's your protein stuck.

That's it. Unless you want to limit Foldit to only players with huge computers and run into local minimums at every turn? ;)

alcor29's picture
User is online Online
Joined: 11/16/2012

Maybe at the very least you could make it so the default doesn't change when you change tracks?

frood66's picture
User offline. Last seen 5 hours 38 min ago. Offline
Joined: 09/20/2011
Groups: Marvin's bunch

I look at this from this point of view.....with Low Power Wiggle one knows exactly what has been done regarding ideality across the whole protein - with auto, one does not.

I'm for changing the default to low....if one forgets to set it to something else, at least one knows what's there.

So I'm with alcor...I'm sick and tired of wasting time - my fault or not.

Joined: 04/15/2012
Groups: Beta Folders

The issue with that:

New players will be submitting solutions with idealities that should be fixed. That's auto's job.

frood66's picture
User offline. Last seen 5 hours 38 min ago. Offline
Joined: 09/20/2011
Groups: Marvin's bunch

possibly - but I'm simply talking about default setting here.

Joined: 04/15/2012
Groups: Beta Folders

Yes, however, most new players don't know that it even exists, so they don't know to change it.

spvincent's picture
User offline. Last seen 2 hours 49 min ago. Offline
Joined: 12/07/2007
Groups: Contenders

It seems that much of the aggravation surrounding the various settings of wiggle power stems from the failure of FoldIt to remember and restore the setting. Is there a reason why this couldn't be done, presumably by adding an extra line in options.txt?

I've taken to using the Auto setting all the time, except at the end of a puzzle when wiggling/fusing at the highest available setting gains some extra points. So the current setup suits me nicely: on the rare occasions when I use a higher power setting it's unnecessary to remember to change it back. I can well understand how other people could find the current situation irritating though.

alcor29's picture
User is online Online
Joined: 11/16/2012

All interesting points. Consider this however: we have an ideality hand tool which works very very well, and spvincents wonderful ideality scripts which allow the folder to get rid of the non-idealities that Dawn mentions, and they give the folder the choice of where and when to use. Weigh that against wasting time (and all mentioned above) and having to save and backtrack all the time because the default is not the one that the folder wanted. If we didn't have all of the tools I would say OK, we have to go with the wiggle that corrects us, but we do have them. Not such a hard choice is it?

(By the way even auto, medium, and high will most often leave one or two ideality penalties which have to be corrected by hand. And, I suspect even the top folders may even choose to forgo those points)

Joined: 04/15/2012
Groups: Beta Folders

And again, until we get tutorials for these tools, new players would be left with some big ideality issues, because they don't know enough to fix the issues that auto does fix.

jflat06's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 week 7 hours ago. Offline
Joined: 09/29/2010
Groups: Window Group

There is currently a bug that results in bad ideality terms that cannot be idealized. These are causing auto wiggle to perform much differently than it should.

brow42's picture
User offline. Last seen 11 weeks 2 days ago. Offline
Joined: 09/19/2011
Groups: None

Does the proline ring wiggle properly in Low wiggle?

spmm's picture
User offline. Last seen 23 weeks 2 days ago. Offline
Joined: 08/05/2010
Groups: Void Crushers

bump

alcor29's picture
User is online Online
Joined: 11/16/2012

BTW- there is also a reverse problem with the default. On various occasions I wanted to be on high or medium and I get back to the PC to discover that I've wasted hours because I've been on auto.

Enzyme's picture
User offline. Last seen 49 years 25 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 07/10/2008
Groups: None

Wiggle Power should be saved on each puzzle so that when re-opened the puzzle can be played without remembering to check the setting.

Sitemap

Developed by: UW Center for Game Science, UW Institute for Protein Design, Northeastern University, Vanderbilt University Meiler Lab, UC Davis
Supported by: DARPA, NSF, NIH, HHMI, Amazon, Microsoft, Adobe, RosettaCommons