Is the new CI slider helping anyone, or just irritating?

Case number:845813-993976
Topic:Game: Tools
Opened by:auntdeen
Status:Open
Type:Question
Opened on:Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 22:26
Last modified:Wednesday, December 12, 2012 - 00:12

There is a discussion going on in the comment section of the latest game release (http://fold.it/portal/node/993936) that would be more beneficial in the feedback area here, so that more players will see and comment.

From the conversations I've heard - and my own opinion - having 6 decimal points, and the fact that "half" CI is no longer placed halfway on the slider, is not at all helpful. In fact, every comment I have heard is negative.

It may well be that there are players who will find this useful - if so, please speak up!

(Tue, 11/27/2012 - 22:26  |  28 comments)


Hanto's picture
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In my case CI is hidden from view under Behavior which I almost never look at, however I did examine just now before writing this comment and noticed that nearly half of my clients had improper CI settings.
Personally don't mind the 6 decimal points, but sure would like to see a current CI display on main client display ( top center ). I don't like things hidden from me, especially things that can easily transpose themselves from puzzle to puzzle without some kind of a reset. Blame it on my blindness!

Hanto's picture
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I was wrong, both puzzle restarts and puzzle changes re-initiate the 1.0 CI. However it should still be visible on the main client screen as a reminder of an extremely important factor during game play. To much is hidden under labels that few really take advantage of.

bertro's picture
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In my opinion,

- only 3 decimals is enough.
- the addition of a checkbox/option to switch between 0-1 linear scale and 0-1 log scale would satisfy both my needs at different times.

Regards, bertro.

Joined: 09/21/2011
Groups: Void Crushers

The log scale is not needed in my opinion. 3 decimals should be enough for everyone.

Joined: 05/19/2009
Groups: Contenders

Devs, Please explain why the CL slider was changed and why it has the current new format.
I find the old syle more useful.

Susume's picture
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I have no need of the log scale and would strongly prefer less decimal places. If there are people who find more precision useful at the very low end, bertro's idea of toggling the log scale on or off would be great.

marie_s's picture
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Number less to 1 is a concept not familiar to kids, log makes it worse.
So please, leave this options for scripts if somebody need it and keep it simple in the game interface.
At least, explain in the comment of the tutorials.

steveB's picture
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I am easy with either method, but would like to know the correlation between them. Having hand folded for ages I know what 0.17, for example, clashing does but am being forced to re-learn all the settings. Could someone provide the conversion formula please.

tamirh's picture
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0.17 now is still the same as 0.17 was before. The only thing that has changed is where the GUI slider control shows up when you are at 0.17

Angus's picture
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It's pretty irritating. Sliding it left to 20% of the scale isn't 0.20 any more, it's essentially zero.

mimi's picture
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I rarely use a CI below 0.05, which means I would not use about half the slider span.
I have no feel as to whether having better sensitivity on low CI settings would be useful
I don't think that I have the time at present to do the experiments to test whether it is useful or not

tamirh's picture
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This is part of the reason we changed the slider. As people tend to use very low values of CI, we wanted to give them more control of what those values actually were. With the previous linear slider you didn't have much control with values very close to 0.05. As the low values are usually more useful, changing from 0.05 to 0.06 may be important but going from 0.95 to 0.96 probably isn't.

We can absolutely round the values if they are overwhelming and confusing.

Another reason for the change was for the new players. If you see a slider that goes from 0.0-1.0 and is linear, we felt it implied all values were equally important as the range [0,1] is common. We could try and explain this in a tutorial, but many players ignore tutorial text and it's easy to forget. With the log-scale slider you are visually reminded every time that there is much more control on the low end. We felt this is an important change to remind players to play with the low end values much more than the high end values.

Joined: 04/19/2009

Actually, there is at least one hand technique for end game that does make use of the .95 - .96 - .97 - .98 values - and it depends on which increment works for individual puzzles.

Fusing should be clearly explained in a tutorial - it is an essential tool, and we see in global that many new players have no idea of its existence.

I appreciate the fact that devs are working hard to provide us with new tools and make our software more sophisticated. From the response of the players in this feedback thread and the release notes comments, it may be a good idea to roll this enhancement back and perhaps do a dev chat to find out what the players would really want in this situation.

Angus's picture
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I think this is the first I've heard about any significant effect of using very low CI values, or even a difference between 0.05 and 0.06 .

Generally, I think most recipes and manual tasks use between 0.20 and 1.0 CI. Anything in the 0.0x range all just seems the same, mostly causing imploding or exploding proteins.

Can you elaborate on what techniques would benefit from using very low CI values?

alwen's picture
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My main quarrel with the new slider is that I have a year's worth of muscle memory that says "slide to X position for this value" that has to be recalibrated.

My minor quarrel is all the decimal places. If I'm really hunting for 0.02, I don't really need to know I'm at 0.018993.

"people tend to use very low values of CI" - interesting, do we? We the players don't see that data. Maybe it's catching zero CI or low CI rebuild recipes or something.

Joined: 12/06/2008
Groups: Contenders

While it was difficult to set manually the previous slide to where I wanted it, plus or minus 0.01, it is now impossible to manually set it even close to where I want it. I concentrate on values 0.05 to 1.0, which means half the slider is now useless to me. Also, having a logarithmic scale is probably unnecessary, since anyone who seriously uses CI values of less than 0.05 is setting them via script.

Dev's: Until someone can prove how varying the CI by 1/1,000,000 actually matters, ditch the extra decimal places. Two worked well; three is probably acceptable; four or more makes my head hurt.

tamirh's picture
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From all of the feedback about how people are using the CI slider, the logarithmic GUI for the slider doesn't seem like it's much use to you guys. I'll be reverting the the original slider in the next release.

Thanks for the comments everyone (=

Joined: 04/19/2009

Thanks very much for listening, and taking our feedback under consideration!

mberna00's picture
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My opinion is the extra ci accuracy would be great for self scaling ci scripts. Log scale on slider isn't needed though.

spmm's picture
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The new slider does not provide any visual cues to the value scale or that it is not just like any other scale.

I don't think that I need to see more a couple of decimal points because actually manually adjusting the sliders is very rough and using the small end triangles certainly doesn't adjust the value by 0.000001 so not helpful.

Having a colour change (high contrast) and tick marks which at least delineate 0.1 would be helpful particularly for people who assume 0.1 is way to the left of the scale rather than slightly to the right of the middle.
I agree with other comments about understanding how we can use the apparent gains from low CI manually, I do make a lot of CI changes manually usually when I am rebuilding, and the current version is really fiddly to use, but I suspect that much of the low CI point gain is derived from scripts.

Joined: 06/17/2010

More sliders!
Do it by 2 sliders + check box:
- top slider have 2 knobs that are setting maximum and mimimum CI
- bottom slider is moving within area set by upper slider (0%=min ci, 100%=max ci)
- check box for enable/disable log scale of both sliders

This way we can set top slider 0.05 to 0.5 and use bottom slider only within that range in liear or log scale.
Super-precise way :)

3 decimal spaces are top we really need (CI 0.100 and 0.101 makes ANY difference?).

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m

eikem's picture
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Sorry for the comment above.
I have problems with the new CI slider: I cannot use my old recipes: the lower CI values in my recipes produce such low values now that the protein implodes.
On the other hand I cannot create new recipes since the the new CI was launched. When I open the recipe editor and click between the blue lines I get an error notice and foldit closes.
Has anyone else these problems?

tamirh's picture
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The slider changes should not have changed how macros interact with clashing importance.

The crash is a different issue. I've not yet encountered that. Could you create a new feedback with your specs/logs/steps to reproduce that bug? Thanks.

Susume's picture
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Here's an existing feedback about the GUI-recipe-edit-crash problem: http://fold.it/portal/node/993799

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