Ok I'm going to say it out loud. design puzzle play

Case number:699969-990190
Topic:General
Opened by:spmm
Status:Closed
Type:Suggestion
Opened on:Thursday, August 18, 2011 - 04:40
Last modified:Sunday, August 28, 2011 - 10:23

In the latest Design Puzzles (because they are so rigid) if one person in a very large group (with active coders) gets to a top ten rank then that solution is very quickly copied using a script, then a script is written which resets the mutables and is then shared to the team. The position can then readily be copied by loading the solution as a guide. This is a fairly recent development.

I don't really have a big problem with that happening in the evolver competition but in the soloist competition it means that you are really just getting a large number of copies of the same solution in the top places; and other teams and soloists who have high scoring solutions are forced down the ranks just by the sheer weight of numbers of players in the large group who have used the fairly effortlessly copied solution.

I'm not saying that all players in the group follow that path but with 150 points up for grabs it is a temptation. Other teams also share and copy each other's solutions but the groups are much smaller so do not have such a distorting effect on the results.

Obviously it is up to each player to get the best score they can, but this is not even a remotely level playing field.
Perhaps three or four solutions per group and one each for those without groups would be a bit fairer?
spmm

(Thu, 08/18/2011 - 04:40  |  56 comments)


Joined: 04/19/2009

@beta (and spmm)

I did reply to the original topic and statement in my first comment in this feedback:

"In 425, there were 3 different teams in the top 5 - and one soloist. In 428, both foldeRNA & AD provided scripts for their AAs for global use (it turned out that position was everything on that one). In 439, in the top five were soloists #1, 4 & 5 - hardly surprising that they will occasionally show up in the top 5.

If you were put off by team AD dominating the top at the beginning of 448, that had nothing at all to do with sharing AA positions - we were trying a new technique to start a design puzzle, and each person started by using that with their own personal preferences. Twenty four hours later, the 9 of us in the top 21 atm have still not shared AAs."

I really did not see a problem at that point, so saw no need to suggest anything.

Looking at the scoreboard at the moment for the current design puzzle, I see no evidence at all that "one person in a very large group (with active coders) gets to a top ten rank then that solution is very quickly copied using a script, then a script is written which resets the mutables and is then shared to the team. The position can then readily be copied by loading the solution as a guide."

This then appears to be an anticipated problem with a "large" group rather than a current problem. It would actually seem by looking at the scoreboard that a much smaller group may have accomplished what is feared that a large group might do. But sometimes the simple (and real) answer is that we have some very good folders around here, and good teams that function well in communicating and learning from each other.

If you want to be proactive about this potential problem that could happen with any size team - then there are really only two solutions that I can see: 1. disable "Load to Guide" for design puzzles (which can still be gotten around by using a script, to some degree) - and/or 2. disable all scripts for design puzzles.

I'm fine with either or both of those options.

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My intent in posting was to alert Fold Central to the design puzzle scripting practice, when this practice occurs in a large team it distorts the scoreboards.

-off topic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As my inbox is full of some quite unpleasant email on this I will add a final comment.

I am very surprised that my post has generated such ill mannered personal comment and has been construed as an attack on AD. Perhaps it is easier to be offended and leap to the defensive than it is to constructively add to the debate?

@TyggyToo - I have simply provided information which may inform the debate, rather than making unprovoked snide personal remarks about other people and groups. I think everyone who contributed to CASP9 rocks, it sounds as if it was very hard work indeed - again perhaps information will assist: http://de.foldit.wikia.com/wiki/CASP.

You may note that AD was not the only team contributing to CASP, nor is it the only group which contains 'happy and competetive players, curious and intelligent people who think outside the box and make things happen.' I'm sure all the foldit players even those who are not in groups have similar attributes, it is not an exclusive trait of AD.

I note that some members of AD continue to frequently disparage other folders and groups, which is unnecessary and unpleasant.

@Auntdeen - I have no idea what you are talking about in your later post directed at me, again you appear to be making a personal attack rather than contributing to a discussion.

Joined: 04/19/2009

@spmm -

While I understand where you are coming from in the potential design puzzle scripting problem, you presented it as a "large" team problem. There is only one team considered "large", and your listing of the sizes of the teams reinforced your perception that this will only occur and/or skew the scoreboard if a "large" team does this - and so was therefore only a problem if AD did it, from your point of view.

It was an attack on AD, and it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that it's easier to be offended and leap to the defensive than constructively add to a debate about what to do if AD scripted & loaded to the guide.

Considering that at the moment foldeRNA is holding 6 of the top 10 slots in 448, then I would suspect that your perception was inaccurate. I am NOT saying or accusing foldeRNA of scripting the AAs & loading to guide - I'm simply saying that by your original presentation of the problem you perceived, the scoreboard right now would tend to prove you wrong.

If there is a problem, then there is a problem no matter what the size of a team!

We are large - we are different - but we do contribute in many ways. And all of us do take offense to others imagining that we do or might do underhanded things when we don't - simply because we are large. Or that it's much worse somehow, or whatever.

Some members of our team do in fact frequently disparage Brick - in response to him taking verbally nasty potshots at our team & individual members. He's been doing this in feedbacks & in global chat since the day that the team started, for some reason that I've never been able to figure out.

Other folders & groups? Not that I'm aware of.

spmm - I find you an intelligent person and a very good folder, and one who has contributed greatly by your work in the wiki. Had you not presented this the way you did, I may have been in full agreement with you. Please note the comment that I left for beta (and you).

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----------------off topic--------------------------------------------

Auntdeen please don't continue to put words in my mouth, don't pretend that you understand my motives, don't tell me how to be proactive, and don't attempt to patronise me. It is tiresome.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." Hamlet, Act III, scene II

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Status: Open » Closed

I'm closing this as I don't choose to read personal attacks from people who are of no concern to me.

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