Developer Chat

markchenirc	hi all	10:01
SethCooperIRC	hello	10:01
TimovdL	hi seth	10:02
SethCooperIRC	so, we're here to chat with the education researchers interested in Foldit	10:02
BrianFSalisbury	good moaning:)	10:02
SethCooperIRC	we'll be logging the chat and posting it later	10:02
SethCooperIRC	so, does anyone have any questions?	10:04
@auntdeenisland	hi Seth	10:04
SethCooperIRC	hello	10:05
jeff101	hi you all	10:05
markchenirc	would it help to summarize what we've done and what our plans are?	10:05
markchenirc	and/or introduce theresa and me?	10:05
SethCooperIRC	that sounds good	10:05
TimovdL	yes	10:05
@auntdeenisland	I've wondered - is the aim to collect data / help find solutions for all ages learning?	10:05
@auntdeenisland	or specifically younge people?	10:06
@auntdeenisland	and yes, mark :-)	10:06
markchenirc	well, there's all sorts of things that educators could be interested in. we're actually interested in a very specific thing: how foldit players talk about foldit with regard to science to push our understanding of what counts as science	10:07
markchenirc	and the relationship between science and gaming expertise	10:07
markchenirc	so, actually, while we are educators, we're actually not that interested in measuring certain players	10:08
markchenirc	we can let others do that. :)	10:08
markchenirc	so, theresa and I are in the education department at UW	10:08
markchenirc	and our background is broadly in games and learning and informal learning	10:09
markchenirc	very broadly	10:09
markchenirc	we're part of a larger team... and our "boss" is a science educator professor	10:09
markchenirc	we worked with Seth and the rest of the CGS team to get foldit data to look at to answer our questions	10:10
markchenirc	which actually so far has only been the public web forum data	10:10
markchenirc	we were hoping to look at irc stuff but I think that may be off the table at this point	10:11
TimovdL	Then I think you have only scratched the surface	10:11
SethCooperIRC	right, it's just been public data	10:11
TimovdL	For your question nr 1	10:11
markchenirc	yeah, timovdl, I agree... but for anything more than public data, we'd have to get approval etc.	10:11
markchenirc	and honestly, there's a lot in the forums that's really interesting	10:12
@auntdeenisland	ouch - I suspect that you have set an impossible task for yourselves... the game does not still really have an environment for real learning from person to person	10:12
markchenirc	certain threads covered whether players think of foldit as doing/learning/etc science	10:12
markchenirc	our main argument is that whether players believe they are learning science, they are definitely doing science in so far as they are part of a larger machinery of science	10:13
TimovdL	For me I would love to see an opportunity to learn more about proteins and ask questions to learned persons	10:13
jeff101	playing the game gives people incentives to learn more about molecular biology	10:14
markchenirc	maybe seth can describe the educational version of foldit currently in development?	10:14
@auntdeenisland	Timo - the problem so far is how to deliver those "lessons"	10:14
TimovdL	But searching google for specific answers is a poin	10:14
jeff101	I thought I knew a lot, but have learned more since I started playing	10:14
TimovdL	pain	10:14
TheresaIRC	there is also an interesting opportunity to look at how much or how little players want to participate more deeply in the science	10:14
TimovdL	I do	10:15
BrianFSalisbury	me 2	10:15
BrianFSalisbury	but I'm a newb	10:15
TimovdL	Because this is a multidisciple sport	10:16
markchenirc	yeah, so there's a paper we're currently drafting that covers a lot of these things: whether players think they're doing science, how much foldit is causing certain players to voluntarily learn more (from the wiki, other websites, etc), why they're playing, etc.	10:16
markchenirc	the nature of collective work. it's also interesting to look at the groups and competitive nature of it all but also the sharing of solutions	10:17
markchenirc	since that kind of mirrors how science labs around the world work.. .competing but still working and sharing	10:17
TimovdL	When I am playing I am applying logic, wiriting new scripts comes closer to science	10:18
markchenirc	I guess one question for players is whether they want us to conduct interviews. for that we need our uni to give us approval which may take a while	10:19
@auntdeenisland	ah - you have nailed that Timo	10:19
BrianFSalisbury	like when the genome project & Venter's group competed	10:19
jeff101	The Feedback section is a bit like Peer Review of Publications and Grants in Academia ... anonymous referees for example	10:20
markchenirc	timo, is playing and writing scripts separate or is one a subset of the other?	10:20
@auntdeenisland	there are 4 components to doing well in the game: science (including coding) - intuition - use of the software - and luck	10:20
Susume2	I think interviews are a great idea, especially since mining chat has been discouraged by the players	10:20
jeff101	teamwork matters too	10:20
thunkirc	Yes. The interviews, at least, have a bit more notifications	10:21
TimovdL	Teamwork, without it my last nr 1 would have been a lot harder to do	10:21
TimovdL	It is totally different, playing and writing. I write scripts because I am a lazy guy and to try out new ideas	10:23
jeff101	Atari turned 40 this week. Many people have grown up playing video games. It is great that someone tries to exploit this to do real work.	10:23
markchenirc	I think that our current plan is to finish a small paper just on the forum data. Then work on a follow-up, bigger paper with interviews.	10:23
gmnirc	to add to timo--i don't write scripts but use them to play	10:24
Susume2	I think one can use/do science quite a bit witout scripting	10:25
gmnirc	i may modify them but don't have the comp skills to write them	10:25
TimovdL	But the game tools are not enough for me to do to the protein what I want it to do by hand	10:25
jeff101	I agree with Timo.	10:25
gmnirc	agreed timo	10:25
jeff101	I don't like to do things repeatedly, so I try to make them into scripts.	10:26
Susume2	knowing what aas like helices, or which way sheets like to twist, or what is a disulfide bridge, this is all science	10:26
markchenirc	a really awesome paper would be one that just described all the steps players take for a particular puzzle... kinda like a documentary	10:26
markchenirc	actually... maybe we should toss the paper idea and just do a documentary	10:27
TimovdL	That is why I am searching for hard distance numbers for sheets, haven't found them yet	10:27
BrianFSalisbury	You might want to interview Kurzweil about using this sort of science to lengthen lifespans, & maybe ask Venter why he veered away from that to try to make DNA from scratch	10:27
@CFC	there was a Supp Info the went into those details, about player habits for a past Nature piece	10:28
@CFC	...or is that largely out of date now?	10:28
@auntdeenisland	Zoran had mentioned during the dev meeting that I attended doing webinars - that is really what is needed - for all of us	10:29
markchenirc	one question we want to ask is whether players have concerns about the current paper being drafted on forum stuff?	10:30
TimovdL	I have no problem with that for me it was allways clear it was public data, but people may differ	10:31
@mimi2	when you say "forum" are you meaning global chat or the entries on the website?	10:31
TimovdL	And it would not be good to scare away people because of this	10:32
markchenirc	the web discussion board	10:32
@mimi2	thank you	10:32
jeff101	perhaps contact people you want to list by name in your paper ... do they really want to be quoted there, for example	10:32
TimovdL	Or even not list by name by by quote only, ask.	10:33
markchenirc	we were planning on removing the player names (tho I guess anyone could do a google search)	10:33
TimovdL	Thats why	10:34
markchenirc	some of the posts are from years ago. are they still players?	10:34
TimovdL	Check their rank	10:35
markchenirc	would contacting all of the players that we want to quote through the forum PM system be sufficient?	10:36
TimovdL	Sent them a message on their foldit account, they will get a mail	10:37
@mimi2	unless they still get emails when a pm is sent to them they may not notice	10:37
markchenirc	and if we don't hear we assume it's fine.. .any player who doesn't want their quote can tell us and we'll not use it, but if we don't hear, from UW's perspective it's public data so we can use it	10:37
SethCooperIRC	but presumably without their username attached	10:37
markchenirc	so, how about both a PM and a message through their foldit acct?	10:37
TimovdL	fair enough	10:38
markchenirc	yeah no usernames will be printed in the paper	10:38
gmnirc	<thumbs up>	10:38
markchenirc	also... anyone at a different institution can do similar work without asking for permission... btw. :)	10:39
@CFC	that is indeed true. And is a reminder to all, about what public data really means	10:40
gmnirc	agreed cfc	10:40
markchenirc	ok... so theresa and I will identify who to contact and provide context for how we want to use the quotes, working with seth, cfc, and jeff on sending an email through the forum PM and the foldit acct info	10:41
markchenirc	sorry I meant betahelix not cfc	10:42
@CFC	I suddenly thought I'd been promoted :)	10:42
TimovdL	about time :-)	10:43
markchenirc	lol sorry!	10:43
markchenirc	are there any questions before we leave?	10:47
jeff101	I think you should wait for people to respond with a yes when you e-mail them to use their quotes.	10:49
TimovdL	Lately there have been some enquetes etc from different institutions	10:49
jeff101	Don't assume no answer means yes.	10:49
TimovdL	No problem with that, but please be aware that people get bored if too much of that	10:49
tamirh	@TimovdL: enquetes?	10:51
TimovdL	questionaires is the right word?	10:51
markchenirc	enquiries?	10:51
TimovdL	Sorry thought it was an english word also	10:52
tamirh	ahh, yes the surveys	10:52
ingoneato	you also might want to wait until the transcript of this chat is posted, to give the players who couldn't make it today a chance to voice their opinions.	10:52
markchenirc	yeah ok.	10:53
TimovdL	Make a seperate piece with the conclusions you make let people react on that	10:54
markchenirc	also, we may have to go into it hoping to only use quotes from players who say yes... if we get no response from someone who's quote is central to an argument we'll have to evaluate whether to use it but I don't think we can promise at this point not to use it unless explicit yes	10:54
markchenirc	the fear is that not enough players will respond	10:54
markchenirc	if we assume no	10:54
TimovdL	Go with implicit yes	10:55
markchenirc	anyway, we'll post the plan to get more feedback	10:55
gmnirc	i would think several attempts to contact would be sufficient--some may be on vacation or holiday	10:56
markchenirc	sounds doable... papers take months to write. :)	10:56
gmnirc	lol	10:56
mimi	or no longer on the same address	10:56
gmnirc	true mimi	10:56
jeff101	what if they are minors?	10:56
markchenirc	ok... we've got other meetings in a minute... thank you all for talking with us	10:56
markchenirc	we don't know if they are minors	10:57
TimovdL	tx	10:57
markchenirc	and won't be asking	10:57
gmnirc	tx :-)	10:57
TheresaIRC	thank you all	10:57
markchenirc	when we move onto interviews, we'll probably exclude minors	10:58
markchenirc	ok.. thanks all!	10:58
markchenirc	ciao!	10:58
jeff101	thanks	10:58

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