Fri, 06/01/2012

@betahelix	Hi everyone, we'll be starting the Dev Chat soon.	13:58
@rav3n_pl	:D	13:58
@rav3n_pl	wow DrB!	13:59
Zamite	is there an "alpha sheet"? :P	13:59
@rav3n_pl	omg wntire crew today	13:59
Zamite	welcome :)	13:59
@betahelix	We'll start this chat by having Zoran & David talk and address the questions in the forum:	13:59
@betahelix	http://fold.it/portal/node/992792	13:59
@betahelix	and then we'll take your questions.	13:59
*** mode/#global [+o SethCooperIRC] by rav3n_pl		13:59
*** mode/#global [+o DavidBaker] by rav3n_pl		13:59
@betahelix	Since there are many of us in chat right now, please try to hold off on questions for a while. Thanks!	14:00
@betahelix	Take it away, Zoran!	14:00
zoran	Hi everyone, the topic today is how to structure the process of foldit discoveries benefiting the world	14:00
*** mode/#global [+o zoran] by rav3n_pl		14:00
@rav3n_pl	we need fornd a way to speed up time form "yay, we found it" to "yay! we published it" 6 months is loooong :)	14:02
@zoran	Some initial things:  pretty soon we may have some discoveries that should go into potential drugs	14:02
@zoran	we should figure out the process ahead of time	14:03
spvincent	It's a very long and uncertain route between "potential drug" and "actual drug"	14:03
@DavidBaker	that is absolutely correct!	14:04
@rav3n_pl	flu puzzle is workin IRL?	14:04
@DavidBaker	I'll describe what happens when something potentially useful is created at the UW	14:04
alwen	Science, then lawyers?	14:05
@DavidBaker	The people involved disclose the invention to the UW	14:05
@DavidBaker	if the UW thinks it is potentially useful, they may decide to file a patent	14:05
@DavidBaker	if they do file a patent, a company may decide to license the patent.  if they do, the inventors decide what to do with potential revenue coming in	14:06
@DavidBaker	foldit players would be considered co-inventors of any foldit produced invention and would have the same say as the other inventors	14:06
*** mode/#global [+o SethCooperIRC] by rav3n_pl		14:07
@DavidBaker	why patent at all? I didnt' like this idea at all when my research group started making potentially useful proteins.  I thought everything we did should be totally available to everybody	14:07
@MikeCassidyToo	I agree	14:08
@DavidBaker	but it turns out, that unless discoveries are patented, they are very unlikely to have any impact on the real world	14:08
spvincent	Why would that be?	14:08
@DavidBaker	this is because it is expensive to develop a drug, and a company won't put money into this risky process unless they potentially get revenue from it down the road	14:08
@rav3n_pl	so it can be patented but not licensed? in meaning: we found it, all knowh that, no need to pay anyone for using it?	14:09
Zamite	pharmaceutical companies mumbo jumbo	14:09
@DavidBaker	I would like to emphasize:  EVERYTHING done and discovered by foldit players will be made published.	14:11
@rav3n_pl	crowdscience ftw :D	14:11
@DavidBaker	such as the MPMV structure, the redesigned enzyme, etc	14:11
@zoran	all structures discovered in foldit will be publically known.	14:12
spvincent	I'm pleased to hear that.	14:12
@zoran	the patent prevents a pharma to take this and make their money from it by doing some tweaks and call it their own	14:12
Zamite	that's remarkably positive	14:12
BletchleyParkirc	but it cannot be published before it is patented	14:12
Susume2	I take it the drug company wants an exclusive license so they know for some number of years they will be the only ones selling the drug.	14:12
Zamite	and not patenting would mean any pharma could get the publication and patent it themselves	14:12
@DavidBaker	the patent application has to be filed before the paper is published.  this is in practice not at all restrictive	14:13
BletchleyParkirc	ok, thanks	14:13
@zoran	yes, pharma would likely want exclusive in order to justify the costs in further development	14:13
TimovdL	There should be limits put to that	14:13
@rav3n_pl	overpriced... always...	14:13
@DavidBaker	say a company takes a foldit design, and spends millions of dollars perfecting it to make it into a drug that cures disease. they want to be sure that some other company can't simply  take what they are doing	14:14
@MikeCassidyToo	Will we, foldit, have a say in how much they charge?	14:15
TimovdL	And for how long?	14:15
Zamite	as inventors you're only entitled to say where the money from the patent goes to	14:15
@zoran	so our key question is do we preclude all non-exclusive licenses and not put any useful drugs out there	14:15
spvincent	But the other company couldn't do it without doing all the long clinical trials, getting FDA aaproval, etc.	14:15
@zoran	or do we create a way to have the world benefit from foldit discoveries	14:15
@DavidBaker	it is interesting to know that private charities when they give money to scientists often require that there be a clear patent plan in place-they want to be sure that the funds they are providing could have an impact on the real world	14:16
Susume2	that is interesting	14:16
@DavidBaker	the private foundations know from experience that without a patent, discoveries often aren't made use of	14:16
BletchleyParkirc	zoran, I do not understand your statement "do we preclude all non-exclusive licenses and not put any useful drugs out there"	14:17
@zoran	the UW developers have committed to assign all proceeds from patents back into the development of the foldit community	14:17
@zoran	the foldit players as IP owners are free to choose how they would use their own proceeds	14:17
@MikeCassidyToo	Also, how is it decided which player contributed? some solutions have been 90% worked by a single player then several in a group jump o	14:18
BletchleyParkirc	foldit players = those involved in the discovrey or all players ?	14:18
@rav3n_pl	we all get a "entire world thank YOU" statues :D	14:18
@zoran	to clarify: if we don't allow any company to have a non-exclusive license of Foldit discovery, nobody will do any followup work on that new protein, and no drug will ever see the light of day	14:19
Zamite	not necessarily but it is highly unlikely	14:19
BletchleyParkirc	is an exclusive company already selected for the upcoming 'potential drug' ?	14:19
spvincent	Is that the situation worldwide or just in the usa?	14:20
TimovdL	But there must be a way to prevent the things that happened with the aids drugs and 3 world countries	14:20
SimplySue	that is true. and we also need to be sure that the company buying the patent acturally plans to develope it, not just prevent it from being developed	14:20
Zamite	usually its multinational companies	14:20
@zoran	one suggestion: each Foldit group discusses and decides their own policy on how to use the possible proceeds of the patented discovery that gets licensed	14:20
BletchleyParkirc	good point simplysue	14:20
Susume2	I thought the license would typically be exclusive, not non-exclusive	14:20
@zoran	yes, sorry they would want an exclusive license.	14:21
Susume2	UW will manage the patent and choose the company to license to?  including requiring a commitment to actually develop the drug?	14:21
@zoran	the exclusive license can have an expiration time, so that if they don't do anything useful with it after some time, the exclusivity goes away	14:22
AsDawnBreaks	Thats good.	14:22
AsDawnBreaks	Make sure something happens and it dosen't go to waste.	14:22
@zoran	yes, we would have to guide the UW policy towads those goals Susume2	14:22
@rav3n_pl	"make it in 6 months or we give it to another company" :P	14:23
BletchleyParkirc	Patents are valid in 5 year periods if I'm correct	14:23
SimplySue	but if the exclusive just goes away, we are back to of value to pursue of zero to everyone	14:23
@MikeCassidyToo	I though 7 yrs but that may be copyright	14:23
Zamite	patents yes but not exclusivity	14:23
@zoran	patents are for long time frame, but licenses can be much shorter	14:23
Zamite	yes 7 years I think	14:23
alwen	Just to give them some incentive to test it out.	14:23
@zoran	SimplySue, not if we have others lined up to try	14:24
@DavidBaker	yes, in the license agreement the company commits to develop the discovery as a drug.  if they don't, they lose the right to use it	14:24
SimplySue	ok, that makes sense	14:24
TimovdL	It may be possible to also put some progress clausules in it	14:25
@zoran	MikeCassidyToo, the IP rights of the patent are decided according to US patent law.  even if we decided something ourselves, it doesn't matter as the law spells out that process	14:26
SimplySue	can the license agreement limit the amount of profit to prevent excess cost of final product?	14:26
SimplySue	or too fast a break-evn point?	14:26
SimplySue	even	14:26
ErichVonSterich	not sure they're connected that way, Ssue?	14:27
AsDawnBreaks	I looked and it looks like patents are between 14 and 20 years. It could be just a few types. There were multiple listed.	14:27
@zoran	not sure.  it can specify this in the patent fee.  which we can use towards Foldit in the future	14:27
SimplySue	can they be is the ?	14:27
ErichVonSterich	-shooting off mouth, nvm	14:27
BletchleyParkirc	what about patents in other regions ?	14:28
@zoran	there is a separate application for intl patents	14:28
SimplySue	?	14:28
@zoran	for US patents you can file 12 months after the publication, for Intl patensts you need to file prior to the publication	14:29
Zamite	and another question is what happens to international inventors for US patents :)	14:29
@zoran	but for Intl law, the IP rights of various contributors are governed by Intl patent law.  same thing	14:29
Susume2	which type do Baker Lab discoveries generally get filed for?	14:29
@zoran	intl people can have us patent	14:30
Zamite	since its just "filing" you can usually file the patent before publication while after peer review	14:30
@zoran	yes, you can file for the preliminary which protects it while you file the full patent	14:30
SimplySue	UW has to have a patent attorney.  can they advise up?	14:31
SimplySue	us	14:31
Zamite	probably zoran got advised for this ?	14:31
Zamite	:)	14:31
Zamite	I'll go back to listening, sorry for the enthropy	14:32
@zoran	UW is best suited to file the patent, (since we have control over them).  they are also big enough to defend the patent in case pharma tries to take the invention without licensing	14:32
spvincent	Might the fact that a patent exists, even though the work is published, be a disincentive for scientists elsewhere to build on this work?	14:32
@zoran	only if the scientists is driven by profits instead of scientific discovery	14:33
BletchleyParkirc	not if they come up with something novel, which would again be patentable	14:33
spvincent	But as you steted earlier, funding may be contingent upon getting a patent.	14:33
BletchleyParkirc	as long as it is significatly different from the original and not 'obvious'	14:33
Zamite	patents protect against comercial use not development I believe	14:33
@zoran	yes	14:34
@zoran	so we will try to write a page describing the general policy of the way we will address future discoveries that could lead to drugs or other beneficial artifacts	14:35
@zoran	we'd like to create a FAQ below it that addresses the key questions and clarifications	14:35
SimplySue	and modifications	14:36
@zoran	we'd like to get you feedback on both so we'll post them for feedback before we make it official	14:36
TimovdL	Will we be consulted after a draft of that is made?	14:36
Zamite	i'll make sure to give some feedback :)	14:36
TimovdL	answered	14:36
BletchleyParkirc	what about conflicts of interest if a player also works for a pharma company ?	14:37
Zamite	good point	14:37
Zamite	!	14:37
@SethCooperIRC	we'll post it in the forum	14:37
@zoran	hmm	14:38
jeff101	or plays the game at work	14:38
Susume2	will there be any restriction on publishing images of designs on the wiki as we often do?	14:38
@betahelix	@BP then they probably aren't good folders ;-)	14:38
BletchleyParkirc	:-)	14:38
@rav3n_pl	bit RICH! :D	14:38
BletchleyParkirc	but still it remains a serious point beta	14:38
@zoran	we should write it so that that work cannot be done by another company, only owned personally	14:39
@MikeCassidyToo	Well if you are working for a pharm company now is the time to think about what will happen	14:39
SimplySue	the only problem would be a folder under a contract that gives the employer the ownership of hte personal discovery	14:40
@MikeCassidyToo	I know I had to sign a contract with my company spelling what they owned and what I owned	14:40
@zoran	the policy should state is that all work is done by individuals, and no work for a company is allowed on Foldit	14:41
@MikeCassidyToo	Yes Zoran	14:41
SimplySue	Then any folder who thinks they may be under such a contract needs to clarify with their employer	14:42
@zoran	hopefully this is enforceble.  we'll have to check	14:42
@MikeCassidyToo	Yes Sue	14:42
TimovdL	How about the scripts we write?	14:42
Zamite	if sucha conflict of interests exists the LA should state that the person under such ownership clause should "donate" his contribution (or something similar)	14:43
@zoran	same thing for scripts: they are algorithms	14:43
Zamite	since you can't prevent previously signed contracts (company being owner of personal work) you can have the donate it if they have such a clause in their company (not ideal but it could work)	14:43
@zoran	good, we'll check that	14:44
Susume2	scripts are already published, does that matter?	14:44
@zoran	the public ones, yes.  some of them also have copyrights on them including creative commons license.	14:45
@rav3n_pl	(adding "(c) rav3n_pl" to all scripts now... rofl)	14:45
BletchleyParkirc	you automatically have copyright, no need to add it.	14:45
@rav3n_pl	joking lol	14:46
SimplySue	are copywrite law and patent laws that similar?	14:46
BletchleyParkirc	we all know you wriote them :)	14:46
BletchleyParkirc	no	14:46
Zamite	well not in my country (in here we can't copywrite code)	14:46
BletchleyParkirc	copyright is something you own automatically when creating	14:46
BletchleyParkirc	patents are something you need to apply for explicitly following rules.	14:47
@zoran	they are different.  you can patent algorithms and code though if you want to protect it.  i don't expect that to be something corporations can take advantage of	14:47
@zoran	a brand new protein that is 100 times more reactive than other known things is a different story	14:47
Zamite	welll if someone makes a perfect folding script they could make it a game changer :P	14:47
BletchleyParkirc	patenting algorithms is not possible in many regions	14:47
Zamite	though that's an NP complex problem	14:48
@zoran	Foldit was created because we don't believe that folding algorihtms can do what expert folders can ;)	14:48
Zamite	I know ;) like playing minesweeper	14:48
@MikeCassidyToo	so far that has proven true	14:48
Zamite	:P	14:48
@rav3n_pl	GAB ftw :P	14:49
Zamite	Genetic algos are awesome	14:49
Zamite	but they are not optimal solutions seekers just quick optimizers :)	14:50
@rav3n_pl	quick? rofl	14:50
@zoran	anything else before i run to another mtg?	14:51
@MikeCassidyToo	Its all strange and irrational: in type design you can copyright the name of the type but not the design	14:51
BletchleyParkirc	age for patent authors	14:51
BletchleyParkirc	18+ ?	14:51
Zamite	well genetic algos are fast finders of better solutions (proven faster than brute force or some SVMs)	14:51
BletchleyParkirc	we have young people here as well I believe	14:51
@rav3n_pl	for sure	14:51
@MikeCassidyToo	They have parents	14:51
BletchleyParkirc	usually	14:52
@zoran	i don't see why age precludes someone from having an invention	14:52
BletchleyParkirc	ok	14:52
Zamite	into machine learning myself, and I like that GAB of your raven :D	14:52
Zamite	and since patents are filed by UW it shouldn't be a problem with age	14:53
@zoran	a 5 year old can be own IP rights on a patent	14:53
Marktoo	Thanks, Zoran, that was all very informative	14:55
@rav3n_pl	k, summary: all thing we found will be patented and consulted b4 licenses? I understand correctly?	14:55
@zoran	no, patents costs money, so UW will decide if something has high need of protection, and patent it,	14:56
@rav3n_pl	ah, got it	14:56
@rav3n_pl	"big things" or dangerous ones ;]	14:57
@zoran	at the point that a company is interested in licensing a patent, the specific negotiation would commence	14:57
@zoran	the Foldit community as co-inventors will take active part of that process	14:57
BletchleyParkirc	all players of those involved in the discovery ?	14:58
@rav3n_pl	great.  now give us some flu puzzels :P	14:58
BletchleyParkirc	'or those'	14:58
@zoran	flu puzzles coming in next 2 weeks	14:58
@zoran	who is a co-inventor is complicated, and the patent law decides this not us.	14:59
@zoran	for example some hairy cases could involve 10 people discovery, but they used recipes of 12 other people. who's a co-inventor? and to what %?	15:00
@rav3n_pl	I bet, 10000 playes in puzzle... s1 see some screenshoot and make better solution that wins. who to balme? screenshoot maker? ;]	15:00
TimovdL	And those recipes are develloped from other recipes.....	15:00
Susume2	does that mean a lawyer is going to determine who teh co-inventors are?	15:01
jeff101	or lawyers representing each person who thinks they are a co-inventor?	15:01
@zoran	not sure.  the law has to be interpreted by someone.	15:02
BletchleyParkirc	the use of a recipe can be compared to using a pen to write a book, who owns the rights to the book, the author or the autor and the pen manufacturer ?	15:02
Zamite	there could be a problem with groups interests vs individual interests	15:02
@rav3n_pl	mailto: lawyers@uw.org :P	15:03
@zoran	this is why suggest that groups themselves decide on their policies and agree	15:03
TimovdL	Is it not possible to add something that limits individual rights when playing foldit?	15:03
@zoran	limit in what way?	15:03
Zamite	and making sure a "group leader"  doesn't hog the group :P	15:03
@rav3n_pl	"i make it - it is mine" no way!	15:03
SimplySue	think groups are a good idea, zoran.	15:04
TimovdL	No right of ownership	15:04
BletchleyParkirc	local laws may not allow you to waive or limit your rights.	15:04
TimovdL	It is the collective that does things	15:04
BletchleyParkirc	so you might resolve it at a group level Timo	15:05
@zoran	the good thing is we're logging all key actions, so the contribution to discovery is measured in detail	15:05
@marie_s	a contract cannot abolish a law	15:05
BletchleyParkirc	there you go zoran.	15:05
@zoran	yes, i think the patent law trumps all agreements, but i'm not sure about that	15:06
@MikeCassidyToo	No, your company can claim rights to anything you develop	15:08
TimovdL	The same can thus be done for foldit players	15:08
BletchleyParkirc	wouldnt that be limited to things pertaining to the field of work ?	15:09
Zamite	I've seen some clauses where they claim rights over all intelectual property	15:09
@MikeCassidyToo	No BP; for photgraphy I had to add a clause removing it	15:09
@zoran	that is the most important point that came out of today: what to do with company employees playing Foldit on company time.	15:09
BletchleyParkirc	USA ?	15:09
@MikeCassidyToo	<-Brooklyn	15:10
BletchleyParkirc	or on company equipment or company electricity	15:10
@zoran	whoops, time's up for me.  thank you all for deep discussion	15:10
BletchleyParkirc	thank you zoran for this insighful session !	15:11
@zoran	we'll continue with the draft discussions	15:11
@rav3n_pl	hmm? playing in work? i want that work! :D	15:12
Zamite	meet you on the forums :9	15:12
TimovdL	Make it not to lawer language	15:12